Help me understand

"fhrblig" (fhrblig) 08/24/2013 at 11:10 • Filed to: None

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When guys say "I'd NEVER drive an (X brand) car" or "I'd NEVER drive a car made in (X country)", I struggle with that kind of thinking.

I won't ever eliminate any manufacturer off the bat, I don't care what the popular biases may be or what Consumer Reports may say about reliability or what an enthusiast magazine says I should like. Sure, I have preferences just like everyone else; however, if I'm shopping for a car, EVERYTHING is on my list until I drive it and find out I don't like it. Also, if I don't like a specific model, I don't automatically think the rest of that manufacturers' lineup is shit. I drive the other models and confirm they are all shit before I eliminate them too. Even then, I don't permanently stop considering cars from that manufacturer, because things change over time. If I drove a new Toyota Camry and loved it, I'd have no compunctions about buying one, and I wouldn't give a shit about what others think. I don't think it's likely to happen, but I'd still be willing to check one out and see.

I also don't hold a grudge against a manufacturer if I've owned a car of theirs that turned out to be an unreliable piece of shit. My first car was a 1980 Pontiac Phoenix that was awful in every way and completely fucked mechanically. If I had said "That's it, GM cars suck and I'll never drive another one", I'd have never driven the Chevy Celebrity that replaced it and turned out to be one of the best cars I've ever owned. I've owned a bunch of GM cars since them with mixed results.

I guess my point is this: when you dig your heels in and say you'll never own a car by a certain brand or manufacturer or country, all you're doing is cutting yourself off from cars that might end up being awesome. Sure, you might drive one and hate it; then move on. But why would anyone want to eliminate some of their options right off the bat without trying them out?

daender > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 11:13

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There's usually an exception or two that showed no promise for the company.

NinetyQ > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 11:14

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I will probably never purchase a Hyundai or Kia. I still can't get over the stigma in my head against them, AND I don't like their logos. The logo logic also applies to Toyota, Scion, and Suzuki.

I don't think that's quite the same as just digging in and refusing, but maybe it is. It would take one hell of a car to reverse my thinking. Right now, their cars aren't bad, but I don't like the styling of them.

fhrblig > NinetyQ 08/24/2013 at 11:23

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I can't stand Acura's lineup. I hate that stupid chrome grille crap they came up with. But you know what? If I were shopping for a car right now and they had a model or two in the price range I was looking for, I'd go drive one. Because you never know what you might find.

I drove a 2001 Hyundai Accent, made when they were just figuring out how to build cars. It was made of nasty cheap plastics and felt tinny and flimsy, but it drove ok, got great mpg, and ended up lasting for over 200k. When I was done with it, I sold it to my stepdad. He's driven mostly American cars his whole life. He's now on his 2nd Accent.

I don't mind the Hyundai logo. I liked Kia's previous logo:

Sparf > NinetyQ 08/24/2013 at 11:25

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Drive a Genesis Coupe 3.8 R-Spec and you will change your mind about Hyundai. I goddamn love that car!

PowderHound > NinetyQ 08/24/2013 at 11:26

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For some reason I am against Kia Hyundai and Scion. Don't really have any reasoning but I can't say I have ever recommended them to anyone. Although I have had a genesis pass me on the highway and said oh that's nice looking

fhrblig > daender 08/24/2013 at 11:27

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I remember looking at Yugos when I was 11 and they first came out. I didn't hate them. I probably would have if I'd bought one.

As far as Daewoo, I actually liked the Leganza. It may not have been one of Giugiaro's more unique designs, but it was a decent looking car. Shame about the (extremely) blah powertrain.

dogisbadob > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 11:33

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For me, I don't like Audi and VW mainly due to reliability and electrical issues.

LappingLuke > NinetyQ 08/24/2013 at 11:39

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The Kia Hyundai one fits me too. I have a problem buying a car from a company that is probably mostly funded by the Korean government. And I have the same problem with new GMs or Fords since they got the same special treatment.

fhrblig > dogisbadob 08/24/2013 at 11:41

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I've had a couple VWs that had their issues, but they were fun. I'd still consider them, I'd just make sure I had some savings for repairs.

The WB > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 11:42

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In my opinion it cones down to laziness. I guess most people ARE willing to dig their heels in and be stubborn because, face it, its way easier to make the justification "those cars all suck" than to take the time to learn which ones suck and which ones don't. I've found most average people don't make informed decisions. They parrot what their parents taught them long ago or whatever they saw on TV once.

But I'm bitter and jaded about humanity.

duurtlang > daender 08/24/2013 at 11:42

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I'd say Deaeaeawoo has come a long way.

fhrblig > The WB 08/24/2013 at 11:45

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Also, too many people say "(X) sucks", when they really should be saying "I don't like (X)". That drives me crazy. Just because you don't like something, that doesn't mean it sucks.

NinetyQ > LappingLuke 08/24/2013 at 11:48

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Well, it would at least be the South Korean government, not the North Korean one that wants us dead.

The WB > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 11:49

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Truth. Unless they have a set of real reasons why they think it sucks, its a mental cop out.

Brian Tschiegg > dogisbadob 08/24/2013 at 11:55

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Yeah I love mine. Get a warranty from CarMax and you'll be just fine.

Brian Tschiegg > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 11:59

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You never know when a good carmaker will go bad and a bad one will go good. Plus, you never really know if a certain car will have features that make it a better fit for you if you don't try everything.

Telumektar > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 12:00

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My uncle used to have a first-gen Hyundai Accent, I actually thought it was a nice-looking car (a little fat maybe). They loved it, it wasn't a racecar by any means, but it served them well.

I didn't like most of their cars from the first part of the last decade but then they got some good designers and pretty much resolved every single issue their cars had.

I was recently speaking to a mechanic I know, he lives close to a huge cellulose-processing plant and the guys there use a couple of second-gen Hyundai H-1 to shuttle workers to and from the plant, all day long. He told me they recently retired the oldest of the bunch... with +750.000 Km of use (original engine, regular maintenance). He old me that it was spewing fluids all over the place and rattling everywhere it went, but that it had been under a lot of abuse since day one.

I have my reservations towards new makes (specially Chinese makes) but I know that with time and will any car-maker can make great things.

Atomic Buffalo > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 12:07

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Most people don't buy enough cars in their lifetime, and have a narrow/conventional enough automotive ideal, that brand aversion / brand loyalty doesn't really hurt them. These days, almost all cars are quite good and within a skosh of each other.

Also, people may consider more than the specific utility purchase in front of them, incorporating their political feelings or philosophy into their choices. It's more important to them to feel they're being true to themselves than to feel they're getting the best immediate deal/experience at the expense of all else. Asking them to leave their mental comfort zone in pursuit of that last percent of excellence is asking too much of them.

Brand loyalty/aversion can play out in entertaining ways... like Corvette fans who feel betrayed that GM didn't include AWD or DOHC or DCT or coil springs or whatever else they're envious of in other cars. But do they really want the benefits of that technology, or do they want more validation that they've been backing the right horse all along?

Mikeado > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 12:13

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The difference is that you're open minded. Ultimately if someone has had one or multiple poor experiences with a manufacturer, that can put them off. To be adamant about it would suggest to me that maybe their dealer wronged them or something. For some reason there are some people on here who won't go near anything from VAG because of expensive parts or something, which I also find a bit silly for the same reasons.

trynthink > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 12:14

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What I find more baffling are people who have unyielding brand loyalty. When they tire of their Malibu, they just buy another Malibu, or whatever happens to be the replacement in the Chevy showroom at the time. I can only assume that they have only really driven cars from that brand and maybe aren't too attentive to their friends' cars, so they just have no idea what they are missing.

When I was a kid, my mom always said she'd never buy a Subaru because her dad test drove one in the 1970s and thought it was cheap junk. Eventually she came around and actually considered a Legacy for her last car.

NinetyQ > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 12:22

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"You never know what you might find"

No, I know that I'll find a car that is either good or bad on mechanical merits, but it'll look stupid. I wouldn't pay money to deal with a car I don't like the looks of. Styling is very important to me.

NinetyQ > Sparf 08/24/2013 at 12:23

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Yeah, I knew that would be brought up, lol! I still just don't quite like the looks of it though. I'd rather get something else.

NinetyQ > dogisbadob 08/24/2013 at 12:24

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I cannot comment effectively to make a counterpoint to your statement based on my Audi, but the old-school Quattros are generally more reliable than mine and are a blast to drive. Can't say for newer stuff.

NinetyQ > Atomic Buffalo 08/24/2013 at 12:26

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What the hell kind of Corvette fanboy would want DOHC, DCT, or AWD??? The whole point of the Corvette is that it's an OHV, RWD, manual or auto beast! :D

NinetyQ > Mikeado 08/24/2013 at 12:27

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Your entire country rejected Lancia, lol.

Stef Schrader > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 12:34

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Probably true, but I was so soured on my Altima that I AM SICK OF YOUR CRAP, NISSAN, NO NO NO NO NO NEVER EVER AGAIN!

fhrblig > NinetyQ 08/24/2013 at 12:35

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See, and for me styling is kinda important but not a dealbreaker. I can at least understand not liking a cars' styling as a reason to avoid a specific car, more than who made it or where it came from.

Mikeado > NinetyQ 08/24/2013 at 12:38

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Erm, so? I had nothing to do with that and wasn't there...

Besides, wasn't that due to tremendous rust issues? If you get a rep for a product that falls to pieces in months and you lose a tonne of money sorting it out, you're not going to last long.

NinetyQ > Mikeado 08/24/2013 at 12:41

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Yeah, it was. And don't worry, I just thought it was funny. Your original comment is right on.

Atomic Buffalo > NinetyQ 08/24/2013 at 12:43

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I said fans, you said fanboys. Not all Corvette fans are attracted to the specific attributes of OHV or RWD. Some like it for its technological advancement — go ahead, laugh, but for its price it has introduced and incorporated a lot of unconventional and trick bits over its history. Some like it for its giant-killing reputation. And such fans sometimes let their enthusiasm and brand-identification blow their expectations out of proportion. Others come to Corvette unable to let go of the baggage of their automotive upbringing, or with a shopping list of all-positive technologies with little concept of tradeoffs. This is how you get Corvette wishlists like I mentioned above.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > dogisbadob 08/24/2013 at 12:45

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I don't like Audi and VW essentially due to boredom.

NinetyQ > Atomic Buffalo 08/24/2013 at 12:45

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Right, I understand. I just think it's silly to look at a car that has always been a certain way and all the sudden want it to change to something completely different. To each their own, I suppose, I just don't see those things being reasonable wishlists for the Corvette. But I'm someone who has always admired it for stubbornly sticking with OHV and not just getting by, but whipping the more technologically advanced sports cars out there.

LuczOr > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 12:50

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I only ever look at sporty cars, so things like the Camry are off my list, but I don't have anything against any country or car manufacturer. So I'm with you on this one, in that respect. I started out in the JDM scene, but older BMWs have really caught my eye lately as well as the CTS-V lineup. I just try to keep an open mind and pick a car for what it does rather than where it's made or who made it. For instance I recently drove a Camaro and I couldn't see a damn thing out of that car, it feels like a pig and doesn't seem as fast as it's rated, but that doesn't have any effect on my interest in the Caddy lineup, nor my interest in the new Corvette.

I think auto enthusiasts are doing themselves a disservice by saying things like "if it's not a RWD, naturally aspirated BMW then I won't drive it," because they are eliminating their opportunity to drive some really awesome cars.

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 12:55

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Sometimes it's a matter of principle. I can understand the olde timers who fought the Germans and Japanese refusing to buy a German or Japanese car.

Not car related, but there's a guitar company called Gretsch. Just about everybody in the 50s and 60s played them. Chet Atkins, George Harrison, the Monkees, Brian Setzer (80s)... They were an American made guitar that became legendary and iconic. The company eventually moved production to Japan. So once they outsourced I refused to buy a new one made in Japan.

feather-throttle-not-hair > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 12:58

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I can only explain it by saying I was young and dumb once. I used to automatically dismiss anything American. Once I was old enough to drive, I found myself seriously considering some American cars.

Now I'm just like you. I just want whatever's best, branding be damned.

LuczOr > NinetyQ 08/24/2013 at 13:02

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What the hell kind of Corvette fanboy would want direct injection, cylinder deactivation and 2nd/3rd gear shift lockout? I think the Corvette is one of those cars that can survive anything short of FWD. Regardless of what is done to that car, it will always be the common American man's sports car. I would not be surprised at all if the Z06 or ZR1 came with a DCT.

NinetyQ > LuczOr 08/24/2013 at 13:06

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Maybe, but they seem to be sticking pretty hard to the OHV, V8, RWD, manual-or-automatic recipe.

Atomic Buffalo > NinetyQ 08/24/2013 at 13:22

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I agree, many of those calls for certain technologies come at the expense of Corvette's essence... but some make passionate and not-easily-dismissed cases for evolution — AWD for future ZR1s, for example, since supercar horsepower is still trending up, and DCTs for better track-day performance. Still, prognostications of near-term doom because C7 isn't so equipped sound more like envy than necessity to me. For some, it's not enough to be in the hunt; one's choice of flag to follow has to be unassailable by friends and family and gas-station looky-loos. "If it came with coilovers, that guy at work wouldn't have laughed at the 'ox-cart suspension.'" Why can't my hot girlfriend's rack be a little bigger? I don't want her to look cheap, I just want her to be as hot as a porn star... ;)

Is your last sentence a left-handed compliment to the Corvette, or to the other sports cars?

NinetyQ > Atomic Buffalo 08/24/2013 at 13:26

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It might be a left-handed compliment depending on your view, but to me it was a genuine compliment. I love the fact that it's OHV, but you can't argue that DOHC isn't more advanced in a lot of ways. I just think OHV lends to that engine's character in ways DOHC simply cannot.

dogisbadob > The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 08/24/2013 at 13:32

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At least it's not China!

Atomic Buffalo > NinetyQ 08/24/2013 at 13:35

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Oh really? What are some of the lot of ways that DOHC is more advanced than the new LT-1?

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > dogisbadob 08/24/2013 at 13:36

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Well, they now offer a cheaper line of guitars that is made in Korea for sure, might be some made in China. Same thing has happened to Paul McCartney's iconic Hofner violin bass. There are knock offs galore out there. Some of them are produced in China under license by Hofner.

NinetyQ > Atomic Buffalo 08/24/2013 at 13:43

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You're comparing apples and oranges. It's not that DOHC is more advanced than an engine, it's that DOHC is more advanced and more efficient by design than OHV. It can also rev higher more easily because pushrods aren't involved.

LappingLuke > NinetyQ 08/24/2013 at 13:48

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lol true true

Nibbles > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 13:50

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Right now, I will not purchase a new GM product. This stems entirely from my anger placed upon them from zombifying Saab. Anger subsides however, and I will probably return to looking at them as a viable choice sometime down the line (when I can afford a 'Vette)

Mikeado > NinetyQ 08/24/2013 at 16:20

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I've been steadily getting worse at identifying jokes, of late...

I also don't like when people genuinely think that way and make such generalisations. IMO It's like blaming or shaming a German in their 20s for WWII. But yeah, I get what you meant!

Sparf > NinetyQ 08/24/2013 at 17:19

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But the ass is glorious! I can admit that the 2012 facelift's fake hood vents are quite ugly, and that the new front is also not the prettiest, but the original Genesis Coupe isn't as "busy"-looking.

Bengal55 > fhrblig 08/24/2013 at 20:26

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I learned this the hard way. When I was younger and dumber you'd hear this crap coming from my mouth "I will NEVER own a Ford product because they are shit, I will NEVER own a silver car, cause they are bland, boring and ugly." Whelp.. guess what... After all that I've purchased 3 FoMoCo products, lust after quite a few more, and my last FoMoCo product (that I still own and DD) is a 02 Cougar, in guess what.. satin SILVER. I love it. Since then I've not attached myself to owning or ignoring any make. The chances I'll own some models from some brands are considerably less than others (I hope to god I never own a Cross Cabriolet for example) but ya never know.. maybe I'll lose my mind, eyesight, and taste or something LOL.

Lesson learned? Never say never.

Atomic Buffalo > NinetyQ 08/26/2013 at 03:54

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It's NOT more advanced or more efficient by design than OHV, if you consider the total engine size and mass, and not just the empty space through which the pistons travel.

NinetyQ > Atomic Buffalo 08/26/2013 at 11:13

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I'm not sure you really know what you're talking abouthere, no offense. Again, I'm not talking about specific engines, only the valvetrain.

Look to the '20s for instance. Basic cars were flatheads. Solid, durable design, but didn't create a ton of power and wasn't very refined. Buick and maybe a couple other luxury-ish brands had OHV way back then. They did it for the extra efficiency over flathead as well as making the engine more civilized.

So who had DOHC way back then? Bugatti and Duesenberg. And they did it with racing and high performance in mind.

That's just ananecdote. I'm sure with a quick Google search or even a look through Wikipedia you can find what you need.

Atomic Buffalo > NinetyQ 08/26/2013 at 12:26

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Yeah, you're not getting it. Looking at the valvetrain in isolation, and harkening back almost ninety years, has f'k-all to do with engines in current sports cars. Claimed superiority of one component design over another without consideration for its impact on the overall package is worth nothing. Technology is valuable in the application. You seem willing only to laud the OHV Corvette for its chutzpah, without actually recognizing the technological accomplishment of its present application.

NinetyQ > Atomic Buffalo 08/26/2013 at 12:32

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Okay, just stop and consider the fact that I may be correct in what I'm trying to explain to you, okay?

I'm not saying that the LT1 engine is not advanced. Nor am I saying that there aren't less advanced DOHC engines out there (I own one). But what I am in fact trying to explain to you is that the very nature of the OHV valvetrain makes it less efficient than DOHC. You have more mass moving in an OHV valvetrain because you have pushrods. This limits the high RPMs that a DOHC can more easily handle.

I was talking about 90 year old cars because it's a more visual example of how one valvetrain is inherently more advanced than another.

Getting back to the Corvette, I love that it is OHV. I love that it is efficient. I love that it is a modern engine. I have nothing against it at all. I brought up the fact that OHV is less technologically advanced than DOHC as a way of showcasing how they've stuck with it and improved it over the years rather than taking the easy route.

Atomic Buffalo > NinetyQ 08/26/2013 at 12:43

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It's not "a lot of ways." And you're being selective. It's not more advanced, it's different tradeoffs.

NinetyQ > Atomic Buffalo 08/26/2013 at 12:47

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Alright, okay! When I said "a lot of ways" I was using hyperbole, and could have meant "all the ways in which OHV differs from DOHC." I didn't know I was getting into a huge debate with someone who didn't really understand the difference between DOHC and OHV and why one can literally be determined to be more advanced than the other. Yes, there are different tradeoffs, but there is a reason why OHV is almost entirely phased out from all product lines globally and DOHC is taking its place.

There may be other tradeoffs, but I explained them as best I could. One of the biggest things the Corvette engine has going for it in terms of OHV is that it takes up less space than a DOHC and they can thus shove a huge displacement engine into the space of a smaller DOHC one and still end up with a low center of gravity.

Atomic Buffalo > NinetyQ 08/26/2013 at 13:11

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There you go again. I really do understand the difference between DOHC and OHV. You're getting more overt in your personal attacks — knock it off. You keep retreating to the bubble where a combustion chamber and valvetrain exist without actual machinery around them in order to justify it as better — that's what I take issue with. There are many reasons why OHV isn't common today. Two big ones: displacement taxes in significant markets over decades, and market perception driven by quality and development gaps in domestic vs import cars in the US.

NinetyQ > Atomic Buffalo 08/26/2013 at 13:30

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Okay, so now you're demonstrating that you understand the relationship between DOHC, displacement, and efficiency. DOHC in mainstream cars often allows for adequate power and increased efficiency (as compared to OHV) from a smaller displacement engine. This is true.

The reason I was ignoring everything around the valvetrain is because I was specifically comparing only valvetrains.

To sum up what I was originally going on about: DOHC as a valvetrain (ignore everything else you know about engines) is more efficient than OHV. This is because OHV has more valvetrain inertia from the single cam pushing each pushrod up, which then moves the rocker arm, which then moves the valve. In a DOHC, you simply have the two cams per head power either intake or exhaust valves directly. No rockers nor pushrods. Thus you end up with lower valvetrain inertia and can rotate faster and allow the engine to breathe better by having four valves per cylinder.

I didn't mean to get into a heated debate about this to begin with. You asked me to elaborate and I did. You simply wanted me to address things I wasn't addressing to begin with in order for you to be correct in saying the LT1 is an undisputedly advanced engine. Which it is, I might add, but not for the fact that it is OHV. It is advanced and efficient in spite of it. And that's something I absolutely admire about it.

Atomic Buffalo > NinetyQ 08/26/2013 at 13:43

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Argh, "in spite of it." See, OHV has advantages as well as disadvantages. It's not fair to say the engine is advanced in spite of OHV if the choice of OHV also helps it perform, e.g. lower mass & center of gravity and smaller size. And I know you get it, but too many "OHV is old and sucky ha-ha" meatheads read a simple "in spite of OHV" comment and reinforce their prejudicial ignorance with it. Like "sure it's pretty good but the car would be so much awesomer if they just bolted on DOHC already!" So I'm sorry if I'm a bit pedantic about these distinctions but that's the price of appreciating the unconventional.

NinetyQ > Atomic Buffalo 08/26/2013 at 14:05

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I understand. The "in spite of it" was really more directed at how the internal functions of the engine perform as a result of the valvetrain. The advantages of OHV are generally seen as external factors, such as those you mentioned. So yeah, I love the LT1 for giving us this much performance and efficiency AND still benefiting from those external factors as well. It is a brilliant, brilliant engine.

Atomic Buffalo > NinetyQ 08/26/2013 at 14:21

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It is marvelous that manufacturers persist in maintaining their engineering character. Flat-four, flat-six, inline six, OHV V8, N/A DOHC V8, small-displacement flat plane crank V8, N/A V12... so many ways to bring joy to driving.